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Lark · 6884

Lark

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on: April 18, 2019, 06:05:54 pm
First I'd like to thank everyone for all their hard work to get the server up and running. I know you've put in some really long days to that end & it's much appreciated!

Now for the negative bit. lol

IMO the current bounties are much too low. To my mind we'd like an economy where it's equally possible to make a living hunting as it is to make a living crafting items. Currently, since no one has any money to buy items, it's impossible to craft for a living. There needs to be an injection of cash into the system somehow or it will be months, if not years, before there is any trade for crafters to benefit from. Currently foraging is the best source of coin & that's just sad.

We certainly don't want to raise the bounties so high that they discourage crafting but I'd suggest at least doubling, maybe tripling, what mobs are currently paying to get some coin flowing for hunters as well as crafters. We could always reevaluate the bounty situation before opening the server to the public. If we're going to experiment with the economy now's the time to do it. Let's get it working right on a smalls scale before we go larger.

Would love to hear what everyone's thoughts are on this.



Mithika

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Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 06:52:20 pm
Bounties!

Some issues and concerns and ideas, whee.

Concern: Bounty amounts can greatly influence the economy.  To much money earned easily leads to  problems, too little money that is too hard to earn leads to issues.

Concern: Risk vrs Reward. Higher bounties for harder things encourages killing more difficult monsters to get more funds. If the range is too small between them it makes more sense to kill lots of easy things quickly with little time to 'recover' between fights or spend resources on healing.

Concern: Time investment for funds hunting vrs time to earn funds via crafting should be somewhat equal. A skew one way or the other can cause issues.

Concern: Balancing promised income vrs random income (inspiration when foraging). While foraging is a good wa yto make coin, it's also random. If you're unlucky, you might get nothing. If you're very lucky, you might get lots. Uncertain gains being the best way to earn income can hurt people with limited time.




Observations so far:

Killed greenish huge spider. Earned 80i. Had to back off to heal 3 times to avoid dying.
Killed anaconda. Earned 1c. Small amount of healing required.
Killed wild cats. 20i earned from each. No healing required.
Killed horses. 2i each. No healing required.

Time investment for killing spiders and the like is pretty large, having to roam about to find them, healing, etc. Currently these bounties are so small it is not worth the time. In two hours i will make a handful of copper at the most in this manner and likely risk dying several times.

Foraging, in two hours I randomly found 70 copper from moments of inspiration.

So currently foraging is a lot safer, and much more rewarding, even if completely random.

My concern with that is that usually I have very limited play time. If I can play a couple hours in an evening I am extremely lucky. In most cases I can play a couple nights a week, and often even then it's a few hours. Relying on the random income really worries me due to that. I will have to spend almost all my time foraging. I probably will only be able to earn enough money by hunting if I spend absolutely all my time doing it. At this point in time I don't think I can invest in a deed.



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So here's some thoughts on the issues at hand that I had:


The primary reason the bounties are so low seems to be because on servers with high bounties that it made keeping deeds and such too easy, people had hordes of money.

Now, hordes of money is interesting, as I, with 72 fight skill and 60ql gear, even on a high bounty server, due to my play time, spend most of my hunting just to pay for my deed. I get to work on my deed about 30% of the time i'm on, the rest is making sure I can pay for it. The people I see with 'tons' of money seem to be those that have the time to hunt very often, and have the skill and gear to fight the hardest enemies, thus earn the maximum bounties. I myself have trouble killing hellhounds, and i run away from trolls. I struggle with crocodiles and scorpions but can manage them. The highest bounty I've ever gotten is 7 copper. I have however seen people getting bounties of 15+. Consider players that play with regular time, don't like hunting, and don't have the fighting skill to kill anything bigger than a bear or wolf which usually hand out about 2-4 copper. Of course, people that invest the time and effort to be able to kill those harder enemies should be rewarded for it - it takes a long time, and a lot of investment to have the gear to do it. So obviously they should earn more. But maybe not -that- much more.

I do think that bounties should be lower than they are in some places. Non hostile creatures probably don't need to give more than 25-50i. I do think it is important to have higher rewards for higher risks, so it's hard to find the balance here, but if a wild cat is worth 50i, a wolf is worth 75i, a bear is worth 1.5c, a crocodile 2c, a troll 5c? Plus their modifiers. That still seems a little low to me, but, just a rough and arbitrary set of numbers that seems at least kinda reasonable. I probably wouldn't bother with crocs but i'd be willing to take the time for bears and wolves at that point.

What I would really suggest is perhaps something along the lines of a diminishing return. I don't know if that is possible in wurm, which will make this a bit of a worthless write up, but whatever xd! The crown has to pay bounties to hunters, wants to encourage new settles to help the land thrive, etc. So what if they capped how much they would pay to each person? A person that doesn't really like hunting that much probably isn't going to hunt the maximum amount, whereas a person that spends all day hunting could empty out the kingdom coffers.

So what if you get to a certain amount of bounty earned, and the crown starts paying you less? And over another threshold a bit less? Incrementally. (As an example, say you earn 1 silver from hunting in a day. Then you get 10% less for the rest of the day. At 2 silver another 10% less. At 3 silver another 10% less. These numbers are just randomly picked mind you, as examples). The hunter can then decide at what point hunting is no longer worth the effort for them. This would allow bounties to be a bit 'bigger' (still lower than some places is a good idea i think), but still help slow down the build up of hordes of money and make the time investment of crafting be able to hopefully keep up with the time investment of hunting.

If that doesn't  work my best suggestion is still just slimming down the window a bit. Or introduce other means of fixed income besides hunting. Because relying on random MOI is harsh, but the risk vrs reward in hunting is also harsh and some people don't have the time to roam the map, or just dont' like hunting at all. 

Traders might help with this somewhat of course, but right now they are simply impossible to purchase so no testing can be done and won't be done for a long time I expect , and i'm not sure how much of a difference they will make. The trouble with traders is usually a few lucky people get to drain them and then everyone else is sol.



Mynerva

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Reply #2 on: April 18, 2019, 08:24:08 pm
Thank you ladies for your well thought out input. We deliberately set them low so we could raise them up over time until we feel we have found the correct balance. I wish there was a way to decrease them with amount earned Mithika, but that is not an option at this point. Maybe suggesting it on the Wurm unlimited forums to the modding community might get us something like that. We still have some tweaks to do and we will give this some discussion and thought. We appreciate you.  :)



Kraetzin

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Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 10:40:09 pm
Personally I think there should be more ways to earn money rather than just fighting. I think it's good to encourage varied playstyles. Combat should still offer better rewards since there is generally more inherent risk.

The way I've seen it previously implemented is increasing rewards for higher QL, but if there has been a lot of a certain resource sold recently then buy prices go down across the QLs. Trade in higher tier goods such as tools would not be covered by this.

This does however essentially introduce minimum prices for raw resources, since players will have to buy above whatever price the "kingdom" is offering, which is something to consider.



Lark

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Reply #4 on: April 19, 2019, 02:05:31 pm
Is there a mod for that Kraetzin? I do remember hearing someone talk about doing something like that but I don't know if anyone ever implemented it.



Kraetzin

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Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 02:44:28 pm
Is there a mod for that Kraetzin? I do remember hearing someone talk about doing something like that but I don't know if anyone ever implemented it.

I had a look around and couldn't find it. The server that had it was highly custom with a lot of mods I hadn't seen elsewhere, so they must have implemented it themselves. Unfortunately that server doesn't exist anymore. I'll keep a look out. I might have a look at writing a custom mod for the server with some sort of basic implementation, time permitting.



Kraetzin

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Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 02:06:14 pm
I have found a mod that lets players and admins create buyer NPCs. The admin created ones can have infinite money to buy things, and the list of bought items can be custom made. This would allow for a new way for money to enter the economy. It would probably be best to set the buy prices low to encourage people to trade with each other instead.

The mod can be found here: Mthec's NPCs - Crafter (new), Buyer and DeliveryContracts


Specifically of interest is the "Buyer Merchant".
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:08:53 pm by Kraetzin »



Mynerva

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Reply #7 on: April 24, 2019, 03:47:28 pm
Hello everyone.

I do understand your frustration to an extent. You are all used to having everything you want and need for your skill levels and now you don't have that. I may have done all of you a disservice with giving you your skills on this new server. My idea was to make it so you did not have to lose everything, however it was not my idea to create an environment where you instantly have everything you are used to. This is a new server and it will take some time for an economy to develop. While I understand your frustration at not being able to deed as quickly as you would like, I have provided a place for you to build and be safe if you choose to make use of it. This is a hard transition, I am sure. Be patient and bear with things. It will all come with time. Do what we do best, work together to make things happen. That is what our alliance on Mystic was all about, helping one another. Don't lose sight of that and become impatient with where we are now. Remember why we decided that a new server was the way to go. Relax, breathe, enjoy the fresh and the new. Most of all, enjoy the freedom to be yourselves without the stress of worrying when you might break an implied rule or step on a toe you did not know what there. Each one of you brings something important to our community here and I appreciate you all. When I look at everyone that came along for this move I am touched to the very core of my being. All of you have shown me so much support. I care about each of you as individuals and I want this experience to be something that continues to build our friendships as well as the community that we worked so hard to create. Embrace where we are. Build something that is uniquely ours. I watch the comments and suggestions, as does the rest of our team, and we weigh each idea out and strive to make the best choice possible. Thank you for all your suggestions and comments. Thank you for your support. Thank you for understanding and working together. We will make this a great place to play and grow. Remember that we are still learning also. We don't want to add mods willy nilly and end up having an issue or crashing the server and not knowing how to fix it. There are tons of interesting mods out there to choose from, however not all would be good for us in the long run. Also, keep in mind that people see that our server just started. If they come on and we have everything already they will be greatly discouraged and may not remain with us. Hindsight has shown me that even giving out the skills may be an issue for new players, however what is done is done. We have the resources available to start making the higher quality tools that you are used to, it will just take time to get it done.

I feel like I am starting to repeat myself and ramble, so I will end my comments for now. I look forward to reading any responses and/or thoughts about what I have said. I know that it will be impossible to do things in a way that will please everyone. I just hope that each of you, my friends, will see and understand that the team running this server has the best interests of each of you in mind as we make our decisions. We will balance that to the best of our ability.

Thank you for taking the time to read my rambling thoughts. :) I do hope you are all having a great time so far. I hope we will continue to have fun and grow together into the best server a person could hope to play on. Don't make me get out my cheerleader uniform.....I promise it is not a pretty sight. lol. <3